Here are some scriptures to ponder on. Pondering means we are searching and have not concluded anything.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing whatsoever..."
Ecclesiastes 9:10 "All that your hands find to do, do with vigor; for there is no doing, or devising, or knowledge, or wisdom in the unseen where you are going"
Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in the unseen, who shall acclaim you?"
Psalm 146:3,4 "Do not trust in patrons, in a son of humanity with whom there is no salvation. His spirit has go forth and he shall return to the ground; in that day his reflections perish."
Psalm 115:17 "The dead cannot praise God, nor all those descending into stillness."
John 11:11-14 I'm paraphrasing here but Jesus first says he's gonna raise Lazarus from sleep. Then the disciples thought sleep as in REM sleep. then Jesus told them that they are idiots and says plainly that Lazarus had died.
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 Basically these versus say that the dead will rise without decay and join the Lord in an instant.
Acts 2:34 King David did not ascend into Heaven. He is awaiting the 2nd coming.
John 5:28,29 The righteous will come from the grave into life with Jesus and the wicked will come from the grave into life under judgement.
John 14:2,3 Jesus tells he is going to go make a place ready for us and come back to get us in the future.
For now, I believe this is sufficient for study material. When all scripture about death is laid on the table the evidence points me towards unconscious slumber until the return of Christ rather than a prejudgment ascension into Heaven or free fall into Hell. This is an important study because it involves the thing that most of the world fears...death. Plus our beliefs about where people go when they die lead us to make some wild judgments about other individuals and might give us a anxious complex to save ourselves and others before they die. Jesus commands us to be anxious for nothing.
Let's ponder
Thank you, Jared, for putting these verses together that make mention of death - and what happens after a we die.
ReplyDeleteWhat you did in assembling these verses from the bible is so important - because we are trying to understand what the Lord has made known to us in the scriptures, as opposed to forming our own ideas from other sources and then coming to the bible to look for isolated verses that seem to reinforce those ideas.
In light of that, I want to comment briefly on the authority of God and how the scriptures relate to God's authority before I share my thoughts on death. I do this to remind myself and all of us of how important this is as we study and interpret (and ponder)!
from Colossians 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ."
We must be careful not to import ideas from this world into a biblical worldview. By studying and pursuing truth together we can help each other separate what we believe that is based on this worlds system and what is based on the authority of the scriptures. I believe truth was meant to be learned in community and not on our own. The early church modeled that for us, and we are called to follow in their footsteps.
Jared, the questions you ask have already helped me to identify a passage from Hebrews that I have always wondered about and felt that what I was taught about didn't jive with other scriptures. I look forward to doing this for each other for many years to come! Who knows, maybe we will make it through the whole bible before we die!
On the authority of God and the scriptures:
ReplyDeleteWe know that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus after His death and resurrection (Matthew 28:18). Jesus affirmed the authority of the scriptures after His resurrection (Luke 24:44), specifically the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms. He declared that he had fulfilled everything that was written about him in them.
Jesus also commissioned the apostles to make disciples of all nations, and teach them to obey all he commanded them (again Matthew 28). The writings of the apostles (sometimes through those who traveled with them) have been preserved and handed down to us in the New Testament.
from Ephesians 3 (Paul)
"Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets."
from 2 Peter 3 (Peter)
"Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles."
2 Timothy 3 (Paul to Timothy)
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Perhaps it the builder in me that always wants to make sure what is being built is established firmly on a good foundation! Thanks for bearing with me!
from Ephesians 3
"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."
I will consider the scriptures you have cited as well as lay some others on the table to see if the evidence points us in the same direction. I like that picture of each of us laying on the table what we find!
from 1 Corinthians 1
"I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."
We can even be united in agreeing that there is room to look at some issues from different vantage points even after putting all the scriptures on the table. It is our love for God and one other that will cause us to respect each other and remain unified in our devotion to Him as Lord.
A wise brother has said:
We cling to Him tightly in childlike faith and trust.
We hold our understanding of Him and His ways loosely, realizing the is always something new to learn about Him from our brothers and sisters.
It is interesting to note how death is referred to as "sleep" by Jesus in John 11.
ReplyDeleteThis appears to have been a common phrase to refer to dying - saying so and so "slept with his fathers" (NASB, ESB) or "rested with his ancestors" (TNIV). It is said many ways, but the point is not so much what state the person is in from a heavenly perspective, but simply a way of referring to the the person is physically dead from an earthly perspective - the heart no longer beating and the body in the process of decay.
The Greek work is "Koimao" and you can see its definition and where it used in the NASB (New American Standard Bible) here :
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/koimao.html
You can click on the links to see its usage in either the NASB or the KJV.
When you view an individual verse, you can see select "Compare Translations" and it will show you how each translations renders the verse.
I think we would be in agreement that the bible uses the word sleep to refer to someone who has died.
What remains a mystery to me is the state of consciousness of a person after they die. For that we will explore the other passages.
"Sleep" is a valid point when using it to figure out the after life details. For a messiah to use certain words when He very well knew his disciples would be confused is interesting. I believe he used it on purpose (duh) to show the readers of each generation that death and sleep were somewhat similar. Remember, the opposite of sleep is awake. And sleep is always followed by an awakening. If we are instantly transformed into everlasting life upon death then how can we be sleeping? I believe we go to sleep at death while awaiting Jesus to return for us by awakening us just as we wait for the morning in life. This is why he refers to it as sleep. Anyway, great point Sean!
DeleteI am pondering how Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus long after they had died (slept with their fathers). Peter, James, and John saw them and heard them talking together.
DeleteIn what sense were they sleeping?
from Matthew 17 (NASB)
"Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him."
this scene is also found in Mark 9
This passage is one that points me to think there is some kind of conscious existence with the Lord after death and before the resurrection (what some refer to as the intermediate state).
DeleteI also consider Luke 23
"And he [one of the men crucified next to Jesus] was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom !" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Here seems to be this notion of "being with" the Lord after we die.
Also from 2 Corinthians 5
"For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord - 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight - 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God ; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences."
Here we see Paul saying that to be absent from the body is be at home with the Lord.
I do think it is possible that as in sleep we lose track of time, so at death we are not aware of the passing of time, but will be awakened at the end of the age at the resurrection and judgment.
from Hebrews 9
"But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."
Here we see the writer mentioning nothing about a period of time between death and judgement.
That's another good point. I'm not sure what they were discussing or why it needed to happen high on a mountain top. Also, how did Peter know it was Moses and Elijah? There were no pictures back then I'm assuming. He must have heard names being used while eavesdropping on the conversations.
DeleteMatthew 17:9 "...you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind rises among the dead".
Obviously Jesus rises from "among the dead" meaning that he was in company with the dead while in the grave himself. If they were in Heaven He wouldn't be among them.
I don't know. I'm just pondering and trying to understand things. Thanks Sean!
In Luke 23 were Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross we have to ponder why Jesus would say "verily, verily I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise".
DeleteHe we are led to believe that "paradise" in this context meant Heaven then we shouldn't forget that Jesus wasn't in Heaven that day nor for a few days afterwards. He was in the tomb and then resurrected prior to going to Heaven. Furthermore, why would Jesus say paradise when he could have easily said Heaven or His Kingdom as in many other passages? The word paradise is only used a few times in the bible. I'm certain that Jesus doesn't want to be more mysterious than He already is. I do not think His goal is to be a riddler. Remember, Satan is the father of confusion.
I don't think we are given enough material (there are a couple passages, but they are not conclusive) to say with confidence that we know exactly where Jesus was after he died on the cross.
DeleteReferring to Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter 3.
We know that his body was placed in the tomb, but where he was raises the whole issue of existence apart form the body and what that looks like.
So the question "What happens when we die?" to me has two contexts:
1) What does the bible say about our existence between the time we die and the resurrection and judgement?
2) What does the bible have to say about our existence after the resurrection and judgement?
The relevance for both of these questions has to do with our understanding of who Jesus is as Savior, Lord, and Judge. Our understanding of Him affects the way we live our lives on a daily basis and also affects what we tell others about him and how we as His followers represent him to those who are outside the faith.
I will keep digging and putting what I find on the table!
Digging in the right place usually leads to treasure!
DeleteI have been reading and catching up on yesterday's blog in order to learn and contribute if I have something to add. I was reading the part about Jesus speaking with Elijah and Moses in front of James, John and Peter. That threw me a little as I know Elijah never actually died at all nor did I think Moses died a typical death. What do we know about these men's deaths? Moses' death is certain but there are not any details:
DeleteDeuteronomy 34:4
"And the Lord said to him, "This is the land of wihchi I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, 'I will give it to your offspring." I have let you see it with your own eyes, but you shall not go over there." So Mosses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord."
2 Kings 2:11-12
11"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two."
So it is noted that Moses did die but Elijah did not but was swept up in a ball of fire. Maybe this has something to do with Jesus having conversation with these two characters from the Bible? Maybe the rest of us stay in a form of sleep until the Lord comes back to restore Heaven and Earth?
Something more to ponder.
Very good points, Jeff. It reminds me that the record in Genesis tells us that Enoch also did not die as others did, but was taken up to be with God.
Deletefrom Genesis 5:
"Then Jared lived eight hundred years after he became the father of Enoch, and he had other sons and daughters. 20 So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died. 21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. 22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God ; and he was not, for God took him. "
The story of Jesus taking the three disciples up the mountain and them seeing the glory of God (shining light) radiating from Jesus seems to be evoking the story of Moses on Mount Sinai when he also "radiated" with the glory of God when he was in the presence of the Lord receiving the Law.
In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul speaks of the greater glory of the New Covenant (the Spirit) effected by Jesus than that of the Old Covenant (the letter) effected by Moses. The Law of Moses is referred to as the ministry of death with a glory that fades away whereas the New Covenant is referred to as the ministry of the Spirit with a glory that never fades, but endures forever.
Some commentators point out that Moses and Elijah represent the Law (Moses) and Prophets (Elijah), and that through the trip up the mountain, God was showing the disciples that the New Covenant established by His Son is not to be put on the same level as the Old Covenant established through the Law and Prophets.
In that sense, I think it very probable that people could be asleep in death, the appearance of Moses and Elijah being in a vision that God gave the three disciples to teach them that the New Covenant was now being by and through Jesus, and the Old Covenant was passing away.
Hebrews 10 and Colossians 2 speaks of the Old Covenant and the works of the Law as a shadow of things to come. The substance is Christ. Now that Christ has come, the first covenant is not needed any longer, the new has come.
from 1 Thessalonians 4
ReplyDelete"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."
Here is another passage where Paul mentions the coming of the Lord. He refers to those who are asleep and those who are alive at the moment of His coming. This teaching is echoed in 1 Corinthians 15 as well and has to do with the resurrection at the coming of the Lord.
Some interpret "God will bring with him [Jesus] those who have fallen asleep" as referring to the fact that those "sleeping" in death are with the Lord - and will return with him, their bodies will rise first, then those who are alive will rise immediately after them.
The important context here is about GRIEF. Paul is saying we should not grieve those who die in the Lord as though they are gone forever - because we will see them again! Paul said we should encourage one another with these words. They are words of HOPE. Our hope is the resurrection, and new life with God in a new earth and heavens.
Revelation 21 speaks of God's dwelling place descending from heaven as He make His dwelling with man.
The question "Where do we go when we die?" is simply answered: to be with the Lord, for those who believe and overcome. Is that in heaven? According to Revelation 21, it is in a holy city called the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven.
Rev 21 also says:
"The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
This begs another question:
Does the bible teach that everyone will go to be with the Lord when they die?
We will have to put the all material on the table and see where it points us.
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ReplyDeleteAt this point I should say that - with what we have put on the table according to the passages of scripture we have cited that reference what happens to us after we die - for me, the evidence points very clearly that there will be a moment in history where Jesus returns to bring about resurrection and judgment. Those who have died will experience it, and those who are alive at that moment in history will also experience it.
ReplyDeleteI think there is less evidence dealing with the nature of a person's state of consciousness between physical death and the moment of judgment and resurrection.
I think there is more evidence dealing with the reality and certainty of the judgment and resurrection itself, and the outcome of that event.
I am going to turn my attention now to the evidence in the bible for the judgment and resurrection asking the question, "What does the bible teach about resurrection and judgment?"
Regarding the state of consciousness between physical death and the coming of the Lord (resurrection and judgment), I think there is room to interpret the evidence as indicating people are in a state of sleep, not conscious, not passing time in a place called hell or heaven, until the coming of the Lord. I also think there is room to interpret the evidence as showing that people are conscious and in a place of punishment or comfort until that Day.
If there is anything you disagree with about my conclusions, please let me know.
Your comment will lead us into a whole other topic, "Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, Hell, the unseen, grave, and pit". These are fun places and words to study. The opposite are "Heaven, paradise, Kingdom of God, and New Jerusalem".
ReplyDeleteNow, obviously the reason I bring those up is because of the wide belief of where we go when death occurs. This is the true discussion at hand. We cannot go to a place that does not exist. We can only go to what God has already established for us. This is why I believe it's very detrimental to share the good news when it's not so great...according to man's description of the Bible.
All of these tough questions that seem to be left unanswered are interlinked whether we like it or not. I believe the Bible is so intertwined that individual studies cannot have much merit on their own. Every topic has to be able to match up perfectly to fit with all other topics. Nothing is left all by itself on an island. So here are my beliefs:
1) Hell (the mainstream Hell) is an imagination of man's corrupt mind and does not exist.
2) All are saved by Jesus...especially believers.
3) Man physically dies and goes into an unconscious state until Jesus returns. No passing of time is known to them just like when we sleep at night. They die and then next thing they know they are with Jesus.
4) Judgement leads to righteousness. Fire leads to purification. God does not torch or punish his creation.
5) God is love. Love does not fail.
6) There is one God...Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. A holy spirit does not exist.
I am always troubled when I stumble upon contradictions. I was taught from an early age by my mom that the Bible does not contradict itself, yet, Christians from all sects have contradictory explanations for virtually everything the Bible says. I'm not saying that Christians are bad because of this. I'm simply saying that we as Berean Bloggers need to see this and study diligently in order to see truth.
Thanks Sean and Jeff for your thoughts and work. Great Job.
In regards to contradictions, I agree with your mother that the bible does not contradict itself. It would not have stood the test of time across the generations if it did.
DeleteThe bible was never meant to be a quarry where we find rocks to throw at others. The bible was given to lead us to Jesus himself.
It requires work to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace (Ephesians 4:3). It is much easier to form a schism or division over passages of scripture and concepts that are more difficult to understand because of the tensions created by seemingly opposing ideas. It is easier to limit our fellowship to people who think exactly like we do. Then we don;t have to do any work to be patient with one another, studying the scriptures diligently to ensure our faith is resting on God's word and not men's traditions. We can just come to building, sing a song, pay a tithe, hear a sermon, shake a hand, and go home.
In that regard, denominations are the result of men making the interpretation of the scriptures central in the life of the church, when Jesus himself and faith in Him and devotion to Him is the only center. Men who divide the people of God over their pet doctrines and interpretations will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5, Ephesians 4).
If you want to make a living from the gospel, it may difficult to speak the truth. The truth may threaten your source of income!
Someone once said, ultimately we don't read the scriptures, but rather through them, God is reading us - to see what is in our hearts.
As followers of Jesus, we are called into unity with all who follow Him. That includes our brothers and sister who are both in and out of denominations and other man-made institutions. That includes our brothers and sisters who see things differently than us (John 17, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:10) over non-essential matters (emphasis on non-essential!).
All study of the scriptures should make it clearer and cleared to ourselves to others what is in our hearts.
I am thankful to the Lord for being in fellowship with you guys - who want to engage in this work together. I think it is part of the essence of being follower of Jesus.
from Hebrew 4
"12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
Jared,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that all of these things are intertwined...any particular theme we choose to study is simply an on-ramp into a study about what God has revealed about Himself, His ways, and His kingdom in the pages of the bible.
What I am pondering at this moment is that there appears to be a lot of emphasis in the bible referring to the resurrection and the judgment brought about by the second coming of Jesus - and this seems to be vital for any understanding we have about what happens when we die.
So while it may be another topic of discussion, it is certainly a factor in answering the original question. The question of "where" people go after they die is perhaps secondary to the question of "who" it is that is both Savior and Lord, "what" is salvation and judgement, and "how" is salvation and judgment accomplished in human history by our Savior and Lord? How did our Savior bring salvation to the world - from what did he rescue people? How do we partake of that salvation? How will our Lord bring God's judgment to the world - by what standard will he judge, and what are the consequences of that judgment?
The scriptures seem to focus on these themes - centered on the person of Jesus himself in His role as Savior and Lord of the world.
Too Late.....
ReplyDeleteFrom what I got from the scripts is that when a person die, he cannot exert his own will even to the point of praying to god or repenting for what he has done when he is alive. This is when we can say "its too late"
So what ever we need to do ( repent, pray, do good & follows God's commandments) has to be done when a person is alive. Its a gift given by God
for us to trust and follow him and be a good servant. No matter where we are going to be after death, if we act optimistic and do good for our fellow brothers and sisters without waiting for that last moment, we will be on the good side.So
we need to spend time on thinking how to achieve that rather than thinking what if's. We do our work first and we leave the results and mystery to God as I believe God left that part as mystery with a little glimpse in Book of revelation.
So we have two options on how we spend each day in our life
Ideas/Thoughts-ACTIONS = NO Result or Failure or Fear of Death( unknown mystery)
Prayers + Actions = God's Words that he will lift us from the grave ( whether it is right after we die or when he returns, but the end result being, we will be with him.. so no fear or mystery there)
Choice is truly ours. God trusted us with that :) when he gave us this precious gift of life
Raj,
DeleteI agree with you regarding life being an actionable thing. In order to actually accomplish anything action must done. However, there is something to be said about pondering and thoughtfully observing before taking an action. Such as the pondering about the after life. Suppose it wasn't "too late" when a person dies. Suppose this life is simply the end of an age and there are many more ages to come. Suppose there wasn't a final place of good or bad but only of a place with God. Suppose that our actions here on earth were not the deciding factors for eternal judgment.
Supposing is the thing that we as Bereans have to do. It's one thing to find an answer and yet it's a whole other thing to ask the right questions. You see, I believe Jesus created everything...even evil. To disagree with this is to give some other entity (i.e. Satan) the power of creation. If others can create then what significance is Jesus? So, if Jesus created evil and Satan then what purpose did He have in the creation? Furthermore, if it's a battle of good vs evil (both creations of Jesus) then isn't evil winning and ultimately going to win based on the number of souls admitted into either Heaven or Hell? And lastly, if Jesus created all of humanity in His image and loves every single one of them more than we possibly can imagine then how can love fail or be conditional based on this life?
These are questions I ponder significantly. I do like where your head is at.
Thanks for posting, Raj.
ReplyDeleteYour observations about actions are so important to remember anytime we engage in a study of the bible. It is what we do that reveals what we truly believe in our heart.
I think what we do is most observable in the way we spend our time and money.
The investment of our time and money is a clear indicator of what we value most.
If we want our lives to please God, then as we study the scriptures, we will be listening for what He values most so we can align our priorities with what God says is important to Him.
I believe God has given us everything we need to know about living a life that please Him in the scriptures (1 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1).
I see Tuesday mornings as a good place to talk about those things we hear and observe from our reading of the bible that will encourage us to live a life that pleases the Lord.
Some issues about interpreting the scriptures and separating the traditions and teachings of men from the teaching of the Lord and the apostles requires more time and attention to details. This blog was created for those things.
The goal in all of these things is to know Jesus more and more and live a life that pleases the Lord in every way.
Jared,
ReplyDeleteIn your previous post you mentioned that you did not believe that a holy spirit exists.
Can you help clarify for us what you mean by that?
Is it the translation of the greek word Pneuma into the english word "spirit" in almost all modern english translations that you are taking issue with (translated "ghost" in the King James Version)? Or is it something else?
Sean, that's a good question. To make a long story short, I do not believe there is a trinity in which there are 3 Gods, persons, or things. I believe there is only one God. The holy spirit who is mentioned in the bible should be stated as "God's breath of holiness" instead of spirit or ghost.
DeleteGod is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Why would there need to be another (separate yet connected) spirit or ghost? Jesus is God. Jesus and God are not separate whatsoever. When Jesus refers to His Father, He is simply describing His state as a human. Yet in many other passages He clearly emphasizes that He is God. It's not difficult to understand the God like qualities of Jesus and the human qualities of Jesus in one entity. Jesus was, is, and always will be God! Yet He was born on earth as a human.
It's easy to understand why Jesus needed to become human and teach us while in flesh form. But why we need an additional spirit other than an omnipresent God is somewhat contradictory. God is everywhere and always with us. God's breath of holiness, aka the holy spirit, is Jesus and nothing else. The only intermediary that we have ever needed is Jesus to come to us in human form due to the fact that we are not the sharpest tools in the shed.
I believe the Trinity is not of Jesus and is very disruptive to understanding Jesus.
I hope this clears up some confusion as to what I believe.
Thanks for clarifying that for us, Jared.
DeleteWhen it comes to the person of God Himself, and the contemplation of the creature of its Creator, I find it very appropriate for the creature's reasoning capacities (given to it by its Creator) to bow before the revelation of the Creator contained in the scriptures.
Conversely, what is revealed in scriptures does not bow before our reason, nor the shaping influences of any tradition (or interpretation) we hold dear or culture in which we live. We bend our minds around the scriptures, we do not bend the scriptures to conform to our thoughts.
I don't ask why when it comes to what the scriptures teach us about God. I simply deal with what is made plain and try to understand as best I can passages that are more difficult to understand.
Because God exists beyond our powers of observation, I don't like to spend too much time trying to wrap my mind around how or why questions pertaining to God's essence.
I also look for ways to stand in unity with all of God's people across the generations and across the nations.
Believing that God exists in 3 persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not a problem for me based on the scriptures as I read them.
He is so much more than any formula could ever contain!
Hans Kung, a German man who has a teaching ministry, said some believers often sing hymns that go something like this "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit."
I agree that this can cause a stumbling block to others outside the faith who would say that we followers of Jesus worship 3 gods. While those who affirm the traditional teaching about the trinity do not believe that, they have a lot of explaining to do to elaborate.
Kung said, it is more faithful to the scriptures to say something like this: "Glory to the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit."
I agree that this is a statement that is faithful to the scriptures, and causes less offence to those outside the faith, and requires less explanation - less unpacking (although anytime we talk about God and words like Pneuma in Greek and Ruach in Hebrew, we have some unpacking to do!).
I also believe we can quickly move into speculations if we are not careful:
from 1 Timothy 1
"As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions."
Sound doctrine keeps us focused on Jesus and obeying his command to love one another - joining him in his mission of bringing the good news to a world that is estranged from God and loved by God.
DeleteUnity among the people of God is important to Jesus (John 17) and to the apostles (1 Cor 1). We should be seeking every means possible to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bonds of peace. We need to guard our hearts from anything that seeks to separate ourselves from others who show the fruit of the spirit and confess Jesus as Lord.
The call to unity and love brings to light the sinful tendency to divide God's people. It is so serious, that Paul said those who practice such things (division, factions, strife, along with a list of other things) will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Part of what God has called me to do involves sounding the call for unity among God's people, so I get pretty passionate about this. I will stop typing now!
Thanks again, Jared, for clarifying your statement about the holy spirit. I pray that God will use us and many others in this generation to help remove barriers that divide His people and confront those who would seek to perpetuate divisions among His people - all with a spirit of gentleness and humility, patience and conviction.
Sean,
DeleteYou said the following:
"I don't ask why when it comes to what the scriptures teach us about God. I simply deal with what is made plain and try to understand as best I can passages that are more difficult to understand."
"Because God exists beyond our powers of observation, I don't like to spend too much time trying to wrap my mind around how or why questions pertaining to God's essence."
Even though I know where you're coming from and understand your reasoning, I think in the exact opposite direction. I don't feel it's a separation because we disagree. It's more of a matter of iron sharpening iron. Here are my opposing thoughts:
I believe asking the question "why" is the most important one we can ask when researching anything about Jesus. Yes, we have scripture to follow and interpret, however, nothing in the Bible is made "plain". Jesus spoke in parables, similes, metaphors, and analogies most of the time because He knew only His true followers would study diligently to dig out the truth.
I also believe that God wants us to gather all we can about His essence. Many scriptures describe who He is. I believe Jesus wants an intense intimate relationship with us. Therefore, knowing Him is essential. Having a god who remains hidden in mysticism isn't a god I read about in the Bible. I read about an open, loving, transparent, and pleading god who desperately wants a relationship with His creation. I also believe that we as mere humans cannot understand His ways on our own. We fall into justice and law and revenge based on our fallen ways. Yet Jesus is there to bridge the gap between our fallen ways and the correct way. He calls us His friends...not His servants or slaves.
Sean, I totally understand your position and respect it. It's a position that I've held from time to time during my walk in the past. Now I see things a totally different way...not based on Jared...based on revelation from Jesus.
You're a good man Sean!
Jared,
DeleteI am enjoying getting to know each other's beliefs and thoughts through these comments!
I should have been more careful in my statement about "...ask[ing] why when it comes to what the scriptures teach us about God." What I mean more precisely has to do with avoiding speculations about things that are not essential for the unity of the faith. The caution to which I referred in that case would not be in the view or idea itself as much as in the time and energy that would distract us from what Paul referred to as "..the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ." (2 Corinthians 11)
THAT the scriptures say something is quite a different matter than understanding WHY or HOW.
Knowing THAT an airplane just took me and my family to West Virginia is quite a different matter than knowing HOW it got me there or knowing WHY I went.
The mechanic and pilot better know HOW! But a passenger does not need to know about the physics of flight in order to get from one place to another. The passenger simply trusts the pilots and mechanics to do their job to get them where they want to go.
I think we are more like passengers in that sense and God is more like the pilot and mechanic. This is a crude analogy and is only meant to illustrate that we have limited knowledge, but having limited knowledge does not hinder us from doing what God calls us to do.
I am suggesting that the HOW or WHY behind an attribute or action of God revealed in the bible may lie (probably lies, rather!) beyond our ability to fully understand in this present age. Sometimes we have to settle for the fact THAT the bible says something and trust God with the HOW and WHY. I do not believe that is mysticism, but rather humility and a recognition of our limitations as creatures.
To know the Lord means to know through experience His love for us, His care for us, His forgiveness of our sins, and His mercy and His grace. It also involves knowing His fatherly discipline when we need it.
I do believe we have been created for greater capacities for knowing than we are presently experiencing, and that awakens in us a desire to explore and discover new things. But we need to be patient and wait for God to give us those capacities in the resurrection and the age to come.
..from 1 Corinthians 13
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
So it appears our knowledge [of God and His ways] will always be in part in this present age. But what a fantastic promise of life in the age to come where our knowledge will be fully mature and we will know fully, as we have been fully known!
DeleteUntil then, I want to join with Paul in knowing Jesus in the power of His resurrection and in the fellowship of His sufferings. This knowledge is experiential as I grow in increasing freedom from sin (through the power of His resurrection) and enter into His call to live a godly life that will invite persecution from the world (the fellowship of His sufferings) as I embrace the death of my sinful ways. (Philippians 3:10)
I like what you said about knowing Jesus being essential. This is Jesus definition of eternal life - to know Him, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. (John 17:3).
I believe we come to truly know Jesus only through our obedience to His command to love one another.
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."
This knowledge is not in the realm of ideas, but in actions of love and obedience (as Raj pointed out). Seeing that actions spring from our thoughts and ideas (as you reminded us)...so as long as our ideas lead to actions of love, we are bring fruitful having these discussions.
I believe the time we are taking to listen to each other in this blog is a manifestation of that love - as we seek to sharpen each other by speaking the truth to one another in love.
Back to your comments, another poor word choice of mine was the word "plain". I was referring again to things that are essential to the unity of the faith.
I also want to clarify that I didn't say we would be separated because we disagree on something that is not essential to unity. I said we need to be careful not to cross over into the speculating that Paul warned us about.
You referred to the fact that I see things a certain way and that you used to see things that way, but now you see things a different way. This different way is not based on Jared [your interpretation or understanding?], but revelation from Jesus.
This can imply conversely that the way I am seeing things is based on Sean, and not based on revelation from Jesus.
I think you need to be careful not to claim your interpretation of scripture is revelation from Jesus.
The scriptures themselves are the only revelation we have from Jesus that is authoritative for our lives. That revelation has been preserved for us by the apostles he sent.
I think what we should say, in the spirit of the Bereans, is that we believe a particular view is more harmonious with the totality of the scriptures as we see it presently than other views we have considered.
Claiming revelation from Jesus attaches an authority to our interpretation or understanding that makes our view the authoritative source for others. This is how Joseph Smith built the Mormon religion - by claiming this kind of authority.
I know you did not mean it in the sense to which I refer, I am just sharpening your word choices! :-)
Well, that's all for this break. Hope to see you in the morning.
In the love of Jesus,
Sean
Sean,
DeleteI agree with you regarding using the revelation of Jesus to prove a point. Yes, many religions have used it to their advantage causing harmful and negative outcomes. I nor you have a motive to use revelations from Jesus as a proving ground for differences of opinion when comparing scripture.
When I said I have received revelation from Jesus, I truly meant it.
1 John 2:27 "...and you have no need that anyone may be teaching you, but as His anointing is teaching you concerning all, and is true, and is no lie, according as it teaches you also, remain in Him"
If we turn to Jesus for our understanding we will find the truth. Turning to men, theologians, preacher, and evangelists will lead to something other than the truth. Jesus is our true teacher. Not books. Not internet articles. Not each other. It has been and always will be Jesus Christ.
As you can see, I understand completely different than most christians on many issues. It's not because I choose to be different or think different. It's because my time with the Lord has shown me different. I know that sounds weird but it's true. I have nothing to gain by explaining my thoughts are opinions. No membership to sell or money to earn. Just good old truth for truth sake.
Like I said, I do understand the importance of using Jesus as crutch. I'm also not in business to tell anyone else they are wrong with their ideas. I'm here just to bring up questions in order to gain understanding of differing opinions. I don't know everything and the things I do know for certain is very little. I'm also curious to learn from others and put conclusions to the test.
I hope that clarifies the revelation comment.
Jared,
DeleteThanks for clarifying that.
I agree with you completely that it is the Lord we look to as our teacher.
The interesting thing for me is that the scriptures indicate that Jesus method for passing on the truth to others is through His people - through men and women.
I was reading this passage this morning from 2 Timothy 2:2 -
"and what you [Timothy] have heard from me [Paul] in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also"
Jesus told the Twelve to go and make disciples, teaching them to obey all that He commanded (Matthew 28).
Paul says in Ephesians 4 that when Christ ascended He gave gifts to men (apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers) for the equipping of the saints for the building up of the body of Christ in love.
So, there is this notion of interdependence on one another as members of the body of Christ where we receive from the Lord through men. The Spirit of Truth is a work through the various ministries and gifts in the many members of the body of Christ.
from John 16:13
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."
So while I agree with you that is the Lord Himself by the Spirit (anointing) who teaches us, that teaching comes to us through men.
Our job is to discern the spirit behind the teaching (1 John 4:1) receiving what is from the Lord and true, and rejecting what is not from the Lord and thus false.
This is another topic about testing spirits, but it's primary application is in this area of teaching and revelation so I bring it up.
Because I believe Jesus calls all of His followers to become a disciple and to make disciples, I do think there is a place for separating that which is true from that which is false.
Jesus calls us to be a part of the church He is building - which involves making disciples and being built together into a community of people who function together to make disciples of Jesus.
I believe that happens by the Spirit as each of us does our part. And it doesn't require buildings and programs and budgets to do the work of making disciples, just laborers who are willing and called to serve.
His love in us will compel us to reach others.
I occurs to me that have moved from talking about what happens after we die, to what should happening while we live! :-)
DeleteRemember, all of these thoughts about the afterlife and other details about our faith are important because they shape the way we live today.
ReplyDeleteHere's a thought:
Suppose Jesus is the savior of all and especially those who believe. This means all (even Satan) are going to be redeemed, forgiven, and reside with us someday with Jesus as our God. Now, suppose there was a strong conviction and belief about that image while here on earth. Based on this belief how easy would it be to love one another? Would it be easier because there isn't a doomsday type scenario or disconnect with non-believers? Would we see everyone as our brothers and sisters no matter how immoral they are here on earth? Would we be ecstatic to eventually be reunited with them after their trials were over? Would it shape our existence here on earth in a more forgiving and loving manner without judgment and criticism?
These are questions I deal with and it's easier to gather answers when asking with a "suppose".
Sean, these questions are for the afterlife which might be today, tomorrow, or many years from now. But these questions are extremely significant for my walk with Jesus for here and now. If I see Christ's image in everyone's face as I go about my day I know I'm on the right path. In love there is no other alternative than to save everyone from themselves.
What's happening while we live is all we know. That's why we need to follow the commandments of Jesus like you said. Love God and love each other.
Jared,
ReplyDeleteI didn't intend to imply that things that the bible teaches about judgement, resurrection, and the age to come are not important and have a profound impact on how we live our lives today. I was only commenting on the fact that I found myself writing about the gospel and making disciples in this life when the original topic was "What happens after we die." We certainly have covered a lot of ground on this thread! And I do appreciate you clarifying that it is so important.
I am trying to wrap my head around the notion of Satan being redeemed, saved, and forgiven in light of the following passages:
from Revelation 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
from Matthew 25
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
These are two powerful witnesses from scripture that clearly speak of Satan and his end being eternal punishment and torment in eternal fire. There isn't even a hint of redemption here. To speak of Satan's redemption without the use of other passages that are at least equally as clear about the end of Satan being redemption and forgiveness is in my opinion, bending and distorting other scriptures to fit that picture while ignoring these passages that speak of Satan's end so clearly in terms that can hardly be interpreted as redemption and forgiveness.
Here is another passage from 2 Peter 2 speaking of angels and also God's judgement of the wicked.
from 2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.
Please help me understand if there are other passages of which I am not aware that speak more clearly of Satan's redemption - so as to balance the scales of scriptural testimony and leave us with an interpretation that could be taken in either direction.
As of now, all I see is an idea that is quite foreign to the framework of the bible, being imported into a biblical worldview without support from the scriptures.
I do appreciate that underneath your views is God's heart that none should perish, but all come to the knowledge of the truth. Unfortunately, I don;t wee evidence that all will, but rather that many will perish - and that breaks God's heart and should break ours.
Sean,
DeleteThe idea of Satan being redeemed is very touchy for many to even discuss. I'm happy you're inquiring about it.
Revelation 20:10 - There can't be a forever and ever. The words that should be used is ages and ages which derive from eons and eons. Once there has been an extensive study about ages, eons, forever, eternal, and everlasting there will be a clear picture of what the book Revelation (Unveiling) is all about.
Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." Again, these are words we need to understand before we can understand the meaning of the scriptures.
2 Peter 2:4-10 - 4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;
5 and spares not the ancient world, but guards Noah, an eighth, a herald of righteousness, bringing a deluge on the world of the irreverent;
6 and condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them as an example for those about to be irreverent:
7 and rescues the just man, Lot, harried by the behavior of the dissolute in their wantonness
8 (for the just man dwelling among them, in observing and hearing from day to day, tormented his just soul by their lawless acts),
9 the Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging,
10 yet specially those going after the flesh in defiling lust and despising lordship. Audacious, given to self-gratification, they are not trembling when calumniating glories,
As you can see, I've chosen my Bible with great consideration after learning about important words. No translation is complete or 100% accurate, however, there are some that are bad and few that are good. It takes a lot of work to figure out what to believe and what path the venture down.
Here is a scripture supporting the redemption of Satan.
Romans 11:36 "seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!"
You see, I believe God can and will save ALL. He made ALL and He can save ALL. He is love and love never fails. He loves his enemies unconditionally so that they will become his own. God's will is the only will that will prevail. Once our will is in line with His we shall be with Him. Right now Satan is in opposition of God. God made him for that purpose. Satan has been an adversary from the beginning of his existence. Yet, God will burn out all of the dross (lake of fire) to make him pure.
All means all.
Jared,
DeleteAre you referring to the Concordant translation?
Yes, the Concordant Literal Translation (CLV) by Adolph Ernst Knoch. Was first published in 1909. I have many other books and pamphlets by him to further explain certain biblical studies such as:
DeleteThe Rich Man and Lazarus
Everlasting Torment or Eonian Life
Greek language
The Book of Daniel
Other sources I use for study are:
Henry Grew - mid 19th century author
Professor Keith DeRose - Yale University, Philosophy
Dr. Loraine Day - nearly 80 yr old physician in California
Tent Maker Ministries - www.tentmaker.org
Dawn Bible Students Association - www.dawnbible.com/content
George Storrs - mid 19th century author
Leo Tolstoy - non fiction writings only
It's tough to find quality work in mainstream searches on the web. It's taken me years to gather the pieces and put them together. Obviously, my puzzle is not the end all be all. I'm still learning and digesting. Having you question my beliefs, Sean, has been a real treat for me lately. I truly appreciate it!
Let me know what you think.