JARED WROTE:
Hey guys,
I know we are supposed to stick to Matthew but I've got a few questions. I'm struggling understanding this whole "spiritual warfare" that is often discussed. Here are my thoughts: I know warfare is done between two opposing forces who wish to cancel each other out. However, the Bible clearly states that God created good and He also created evil. If that is the case, then how and why does one God want the things he created warring with each other? Does He really mean "war" as in the way we humans know it? Or does He mean something completely different based on the teaching of "do not resist evildoers" spoken in Luke?
I'd like to know your thoughts, comments, etc.
Jared,
ReplyDeleteWhen we come to the bible and ask: "What does the bible say about this?" we need to be careful. As you already know, but it bears repeating (so I can remind myself), that it is possible for me to bring my own ideas to the scriptures, and seek to justify my beliefs about things by seeking "proofs" from the bible.
It has been my experience over the past 25 years that this has certainly been the case with various doctrines that are taught in different circles. Having said that, this will be a good exercise to sharpen our communication.
A brief search for the word warfare shows that the word warfare in the New American Standard Bible is used:
ReplyDelete1 time in the New Teatament.
0 times in Todays New International Version.
1 time in the The Message.
I chose these 3 translations because they represent a sampling from the spectrum of translation ranging from "word to word" to "meaning to meaning" (formal to functional equivalents).
I searched on the word love and don't have time to count all of them!
That is not to say that the bible does not address the issue of warfare, but it does put in some perspective the weight that word carries in the New Testament.
Sean, thanks for your reply to Jared's questions with regards to the meaning of word "warfare". I don't think it suggests a literal meaning when we use the term "spiritual warfare". I think it just pertains to the notion that there are evil and good forces in the world trying to persuade each person to subscribe to their vision. Whether it is conscious or not, or whether we can actually see it, the Bible alludes to those forces perpetually, from my viewpoint. Also, I can feel the presence of them trying to enlist me to do one thing over another for good or bad depending on how I perceive the action. God has a strict code for the conduct he expects from us and I believe that is "good". Anything converse to that code, I must categorize as "bad" by definition. My perception of spiritual warfare may be at a personal level or a collective, all the way up to all of mankind, but at the end of the day it is choice that we make as humans every day,
DeleteSean,
DeleteThat's great! This might not be a translation issue but more of a philosophical issue. I did the same thing you did and word searched warfare and others. However, since warfare could be synonymous with numerous others it becomes a question of logic rather than direct translation. I somewhat believe this "spiritual warfare" might be much different than just fighting or opposing an enemy. We humans believe in destroying our enemies. Jesus spoke of loving and praying FOR our enemies. Also, our battle (war, enemy) is not flesh and blood. So, should be love our spiritual enemies? Didn't God create them to be what they are? Jesus said Satan has been a murderer and sinner from the BEGINNING and that God creates evil.
The more I search the scripture and put pieces together the more I realize that love (patience, kindness, gentleness, meekness, etc.) is the ultimate weapon of Christ. I don't believe He will or wishes to destroy his anyone. After all, He created Satan to be an adversary for a purpose. Why? I have ideas but I'm still pondering that question.
This warfare being discussed is quite alright and I understand the purpose, but I also know it should be out of love for all of God's creation and not to destroy an enemy. I hope this makes sense.
Jared
Jared and Jeff,
DeleteThese are excellent points.
My search on the word warfare was a quick exercise to see to show that the translators have not chosen that English word to describe the nature of the conflict we are in. Jeff, you described well the effects of the what the bible calls our "flesh", that part of us that is tempted and drawn into actions and attitudes that God has let us know are not pleasing to Him...not the way He made us to be...not according to love. Jared, what you mentioned are important things to consider, and I think this is where the word "warfare" can mislead us, because we can find ourselves fighting people and making enemies with those Jesus calls us to love. I believe you are right, love (and the fruit of the spirit - Galations 5) are God's weapons against injustice for the believer.
This is good, gotta run back to work now! Thanks for you insights as we pursue the renewing of our minds through God's word and His Spirit (Romans 12:1-2).
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you. One thought I had while reading your comment was there is a big difference between evil and sin. Evil is not perfection, chaos, uneasiness, "bad". Sin is a literal action or thought derived from evilness. We humans are born in God's image into a chaotic world full of evil and yet in a universe full of perfection. Our sin or obedience is basically us subscribing to one side or the other. However, God says our trials and judgment leads us to righteousness. So, the question is can we humans become righteous without trials and judgment (sin)?
Jared
It seems that underneath the phrase "spiritual warfare" is this notion that the coming of the kingdom of God - on earth as it is in heaven - is opposed...from a force within ourselves (the "flesh" - as Jeff mentioned), as well as through forces at work in the spiritual and physical world around us. In other words, there are enemies of God and His kingdom (and of us as God's people).
ReplyDeleteSo, apart from the constant struggle with our "flesh" with its bent towards sin, one of the things we are looking at is "What does the bible say about how we should treat our enemies?"
In light of what Jared mentioned about what Jesus teaches His followers regarding how to deal with our enemies, here is another passage for us to consider from Paul in Romans 12:
17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Sean,
ReplyDeleteI remember those passages and that makes good sense. I believe that there is protocol with the varying kinds of evil doers that come along. I don't think we are supposed to lay down and let others do whatever they want to us and our families. I believe God gave me a brain and arms and legs to either flee or fight. Also, my mom used to always say, "God helps those who help themselves"
I am not sure if I am right, but I feel I am the protector of my family and whether the protection is physical or spiritual, I must step up to the plate.
I think we should follow the example of Paul and Jesus with forgiveness of our enemies, but we also have to protect our souls and bodies from evildoers. We can forgive them their trespasses, and we can give them grace that they do not deserve without becoming a "doormat".
Jeff,
DeleteI agree with you that while God's kingdom does not come on earth as it is in heaven through use of the sword (through using lethal force to destroy other people in opposition to God and His rule), protecting our families from someone who wants to harm very well could!
We always need to think about context when applying the scriptures to our circumstances - to know how God would have us respond in any situation.
One of God's laws in Exodus 22 says this: "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed."
note the "after sunrise"...
It appears that if someone were to break into a home at night with the intent of stealing the owner's property, they have no way of knowing their motives and are not guilty of murder if they were to kill them. The thief could have had worse intentions!
It also appears that lethal force is not justified in defending property from theft.
However, this law still leaves the door wide open for someone to use lethal force to protect their family.
This opens up a whole conversation on the various spheres of authority : family, the church, the state...and the nature of how power is exercised in each in dealing with evil.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90W7u2zWlbU
Sean,
DeleteThat's a funny video:)
My opinion and my personal research has lead me to believe in absolute pacifism. I totally get the Duet scripture and the Mosaic Law, however, I've got to side with Jesus on this one. His character was example enough to teach me that violence and killing isn't permitted in any manner or circumstance. Then His words of peace resonated with me as well. God knows each of our day counts and there is nothing we can do to alter His will for our lives. If we are to die then we cannot save it through guns or physical protection. If we are to live we cannot be put to death. As a parent or a guardian of weaker beings we have a humanistic sense of fight and protection. I have felt it at points in my life and I'm sure most people, especially men, have. However, dying to our humanistic traits is what this life is all about. God is our absolute protector. His will trumps our actions. We are to be smart and take the necessary precautions in order for safely but I believe we are never suppose to take another life under any circumstance. Jesus gave His life when it was unjust and unfair. He did not resist nor did He dance around the streets taunting the enemy. He even restored an ear of the soldier who was apprehending him. A great book to read concerning this matter is The Kingdom of God Is Within You by Leo Tolstoy.
Jared