Listening to the discussion this morning I remembered a comment about Satan getting kicked out of Heaven for being prideful, arrogant, and controlling. I know this isn't following Matthew 14, but I thought it might be a great discussion.
John 8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
1 John 3:8 - "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
I personally don't think Satan fell from Heaven (being a resident of Heaven in particular). If Satan was a murderer, liar, and sinner from the very beginning of his existence how could he reside in the Kingdom of God? How could he have time to influence a third of the angels? It just doesn't make sense for Satan to have been a part of God's almighty place when is specifically states that he was a "heathen" from the very beginning of his creation.
Revelation 12:3-4 - "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."
I'm not sure what the real truth is but I'm searching. I'm interested to hear everyone's opinion.
SEAN WROTE:
ReplyDeleteJared,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and observations.
In regards to the real truth on any matter I don't fully understand in the bible,
I always remind myself that the truth is a person...the Lord Jesus himself.
There is a song by Cynthia Clawson, a singer that Christie and I are fond of, that has a line that says,
"I don't know much, but I know You love me;
and that may be all I need to know."
Another song by Michael Card say this:
"Could it be You make your presence known, so often by Your absence?
Could it be that questions tell us more than answers ever do?
Could it be that You would really rather die than live without us?
Could it be the only answer that means anything is You?"
On non-essential things, our knowledge of the scriptures will always be limited...
"Now we know in part; then we will know fully, as we are fully known." (1 Cor 13)
Until then, we need to simply trust the Father when some things are not as clear as we would like
them to be from the scriptures.
At the same time, I think we should be as diligent as we can to make sure what we believe is based on God's authority
revealed in the scriptures - and that we be in complete agreement with one another on things that are essential to our faith in Jesus.
(1 Cor 1:10)
In regard to satan's fall:
The word FALL is interesting to me...
We often speak of the FALL of mankind in the garden of Eden.
But the scriptures teach plainly that man (Adam and Eve) REBELLED against God's command, and God DROVE them out of the garden.
So it wasn't as much a FALL then, as it was a REBELLION, a breaking of covenant, with the consequence of SEPARATION from God.
In that sense, I agree with you that Satan never FELL from heaven.
I believe the scriptures teach very clearly that Satan was CAST DOWN from heaven by God Himself at some point in the past.
It is my opinion that God didn't break a sweat casting him down either!
Jesus said he witnessed the event, and John wrote about it. (Luke 10, Rev 12)
In light of those passages, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that Isaiah 14 references this event as well.
How exactly that all went down, God knows! That is not essential.
What is essential is to understand that satan and the powers of darkness were utterly defeated
by Jesus through His death on the cross and His resurrection! We have been freed from the power of sin and the fear of death!
Having studied some of these things afresh over the past several months,
I continue to believe that satan is destined for the lake of fire, where he will be tormented day and night forever. (Rev 20)
Jesus said that the lake for fire was in fact prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matt 25)
In regards to the percentage of angels swept away:
I find Rev 12 to be the best explanation of the existence of demons and other "principalities and powers" of darkness at work in this present evil age
under satan - who are presently at war against God and the people of God.
But even if our opinions are wrong about the details of how satan came to be who he is and how the demons came to be,
its not going to stop us from casting them out whenever and wherever God gives opportunity in the authority of the name of Jesus!
SEAN WROTE (continued):
ReplyDeleteIn all of our discussions, I hope to stay within the boundaries of what has clearly been revealed to us by God in the scriptures for
our teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).
As we do, we will continue to grow together as ambassadors of Christ and ministers of the Gospel of His grace in the unique ways God has called each of us to that work.
We will continue to learn to use the scriptures in way that advances God's work in the world and in the lives of those around us.
I think of Paul's words to Timothy (1 Tim 1)
"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain persons not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm."
My prayer for us is that we take another exhortation from Paul to Timothy to heart (2 Tim 2:15):
"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,
a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."
Jared, you always provoke us to do that very thing...and I thank God for making you who you are!
I believe the correct handling of the word of truth leads to making disciples - who can in turn make disciples,
until the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the water covers the seas!
So glad to be joined together in the cause of Christ!
In His unfailing love,
Sean
In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity
JARED WROTE:
DeleteThank you Sean. I like your thoughts.
Can someone more familiar with the scriptures tell me why Lucifer might be Satan? Can Lucifer be someone else other than Satan?
My Best,
Jared
SEAN WROTE:
DeleteThe reference to the proper name "Lucifer" only appears one time in the entire bible - Isaiah 14:12.
The King James and New King James translate the Hebrew word "helel" into the proper name Lucifer.
Other translations such as NIV, TNIV, NASB, RSV translate "helel" into "day star" or "star of the morning".
So the reference to a personality who goes by the name Lucifer comes from one verse in the KJV.
Not much to build a doctrine and form any solid conclusions about such a personality for sure!
I have J. Alec Moyer's commentary on the prophecy of Isaiah in my library.
Regarding verse 14:12 he writes:
"Behind Isaiah's reference to the morning star ("helel", shining one) lies a Caananite mythology of the "revolt in heaven" genre: the morning star, Helal (which the BHS - Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia [a primary Hebrew source of translation] would read here and which Albright [who authored "Archaelogoy and the Religion of Israel"] says is Ishtar), attempted a coup which failed, with loss of status for him. The Old Testament uses such allusions without attributing reality to the dramatic personae.
Moyer comments further that Isaiah 14:9-15 is poetic genre, not narrative. The content of the this poem (vs. 9-15) is an imaginative visit to Sheol.
Bottom line for is:
I think it is erroneous to think about a spiritual personality named Lucifer, because I don't think we have much evidence that a personality with that name ever existed!
Back to programming computers now!
JEFF WROTE:
ReplyDeleteJared and Sean,
Thanks for opening up the conversation. It is strange that you decided to write about Satan and who he is really. I was thinking to myself when we were chatting about him and spiritual warfare, where is the story about Satan. Since i do not know my way around the Bible very well, I was wondering where we get our info about who he is and where he came from? I have never read the story, just heard about it from "others". I thought to myself that there must be some source to attribute Satan's story and his fall from grace, right?
It sounds like there are rumblings of evil in the Bible and even Satan, I believe, but nothing concrete about the history of him. Maybe he is a faceless force and not being as we like to make him out? I don't know, but i do feel the pull of evil at times and in a strong way so I truly believe that evil exists just a Jesus says it does. Maybe Sean is right and we don't need to know how, but just that he exists and we can fight him by turning to the Lord?
As for Lucifer, I always thought it was a synonym for Satan? Like Rah is for God. I would also like to know if Lucifer is an apprentice of the Devil or he, himself.
Thanks for your discussion and looking forward to more!
SEAN WROTE:
DeleteHi Jeff,
Thanks for your post.
I found this to be one of many great resources for what the bible says about
some the topics we have been discussing.
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/studies/spiritual-warfare/
Hope you find it helpful,
Sean
JARED WROTE:
DeleteSean,
I've read some of Enjoying God Ministries in the past and I just read the one about Satan and the demons. Even though it's well laid out and seems logical, I have to say I disagree with them. Simple things don't add up when questions start being asked and there seem to be many holes in their theory. However, it's a great place to begin the discovery. Keep up the good work!!!
My Best
JEFF WROTE:
DeleteSean,
Thanks for that link to the God Ministries! I enjoyed reading more about the notion of Satan and the history of his existence. It seems that there is nothing cut and dry but there are many references to what Satan does to God's followers and others. It is a bit fascinating to me so I think I will dive in a little more and report back anything I find worth sharing.
Cheers,
JARED WROTE:
ReplyDeleteGood points.
If we are "fighting the good fight" then shouldn't we know our enemy? Sun Tzu has many quotes from the Art of War regarding understanding your enemy before you battle. I believe all war is deception and Satan is the great deceiver. I believe Satan is not Lucifer. I believe Satan never resided with God in Heaven. I believer Satan was a sinner/murderer from the absolute beginning of his creation. I believer Satan has never created a single thing in his existence (including evil). I believe we need to understand more about why he was created and for what purpose in order to have a deeper understanding of God.
Why fight when we do not know "who" we are fighting. This subject can be brought up another time. I did not want to take efforts away from Matthew 14. Just wanted to throw out a few thoughts. It's all up to the group and what's on the hearts.
My Best,
Jared
SEAN WROTE:
Delete"Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes."
~ 2 Cor 2:10-11
Good point about knowing our enemy.
Interesting that the issue of forgiveness (or rather unforgiveness) is mentioned in the same sentence as Satan's schemes...
BTW,
I know two football teams who are studying each other's weaknesses very carefully right now!
Wow!! This discussion hits my questions about the evil that exists in the world. I too wondered about him, but as you witness for some reason there is no direct answer to that question about who he is and why he is the way he is. All we know that he is a rebellion just like Adam and he is among us trying to take revenge by distracting God's children from loving him and seeking his wisdom.
ReplyDeleteHere is my theory/imagination/intuition. There are Angels in heaven who serve god. But at some point this Angel must be really getting impatient about God's love and patience towards us. This Angel takes wrong decisions to punish the sinners while God is giving them chance over chance through endless love and amazing grace. At some point, this Angel might have done things that are not covenants of God and hence he is casted away from heaven. But this guy instead of repenting, wants to be his own boss (God) here on earth and prove God that he is right and therefore the warfare. Where did I get this idea ? Did you guys watched the movie THOR? or how about the parable about the brother who kills another brother as God approves his brothers offering but not his?
Any one who distracts from seeing God's love and grace will be in this position. Any one who questions God's deeds will be in this position. Questioning is the starting point of distraction. Questioning is the starting point of trying to understand and take things to control sometimes beyond our abilities. Our respect and love towards God will help us stay in the right path. Our questioning and our over confidence about our own understanding and abilities will lead us in the wrong path.
As Sean mentioned and as we know from our own experience in Science, we are evolving and still we have so many questions that are unanswered. But we all do know that we get what we seek.
So we should spend our time seeking what we want ( Jesus & God's forgiveness and his love) not what you don't want. knowing that Jesus is our teacher, God as our father, we should seek them with love and in the process love each other. We just need to know that we are weak. Just like gravity pulls objects down to earth, there is this force that pulls us back to committing sins when we are not aware. So we need to be alert and ask god to help us defy the gravity forces and walk in his way towards him and we should not stumble seeking things that are distractions. My understanding and my current state of my mind.
Sorry for a lengthy post but really I have the same question and over the last year of following Jesus christ, this is where I am. Do not let your brain distract with our real world knowledge, facts. So my theory is just a theory as it is my brain distracting me from what is real. Respect, Love, Trust and worship him with all your heart pushing doubts and distractions away.
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.( Matthew 23 :12).
Very good insights, Raj. Thanks for sharing them! I think it is so important for us to remember and take to heart what you said about being weak.
DeletePeter made great boasts about his devotion to Jesus - saying the other disciples might fall away from the Lord, but he (Peter) would go with Jesus all the way to death if needed.
Jesus told Peter that he would deny that he even knows him when the pressure comes. The problem was that although Peter knew Jesus, he didn't know himself very well...and how weak he really was in his own strength.
Makes me think of our brother in Christ who is presently in prison in Iran - suffering beatings to the point that he cannot walk - yet he is refusing to deny his faith and allegiance to Jesus. He stands strong because of his trust in God's strength. The devil wants to destroy his faith and his witness to the love and power of God in Christ, but Jesus is with him, giving him strength to endure sufferings so that others can see what genuine faith looks like...and in seeing might come to faith themselves.
I also like what you said about seeking to love God, and in the process each other. Somehow our love for each other proves the genuineness of our love for God. (1 John 2).